Curse

Slaphead Monk · Jun 19, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

When running with 3(or 4) terras and a single warrior, n/p becomes superior due to inspirational speech, although a single derv generally does the job better.

When running with 3 (or 4) terras run mes spike (or dwgs) because manly spike with only war + nec is shitty and pointless when mesmers/rits are stronger and better overall.

There, fixed that for you

i lol'd @ assylia calling people terribad for saying AP is subpar when it clearly is. You even listed the reasons for bringing n/p over n/a... N/P with ijafw is actually becoming more common, so i wouldnt say it is beyond pugteams.

OT: It makes pretty much no difference as paranon says, everything should die anyway. but ideally go n/p with the bar you showed.
Thing is, most pugs are still pretty sub-par in terms of team coordination and ability (which is beyond me how people can be bad at pressing 12345, or making a simple ball when there are several good videos with experienced pulls) so your bar although not having an effect on the spikes, will have an effect on cleanup, and assuming you have some cleanup to do, n/p is going to be vastly better than n/a,

Life Bringing · Jun 19, 2011, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaphead Monk

When running with 3 (or 4) terras run mes spike (or dwgs) because manly spike with only war + nec is shitty and pointless when mesmers/rits are stronger and better overall.

There, fixed that for you

i lol'd @ assylia calling people terribad for saying AP is subpar when it clearly is. You even listed the reasons for bringing n/p over n/a... N/P with inspirational is actually becoming more common, so i wouldnt say it is beyond pugteams.

OT: It makes pretty much no difference as paranon says, everything should die anyway. but ideally go n/p with the bar you showed.
Thing is, most pugs are still pretty sub-par in terms of team coordination and ability (which is beyond me how people can be bad at pressing 12345, or making a simple ball when there are several good videos with experienced pulls) so your bar although not having an effect on the spikes, will have an effect on cleanup, and assuming you have some cleanup to do, n/p is going to be vastly better than n/a,

Meh, im from a time before buh change and regen change, when war+nec reigned supreme. Oh, and N/A is far superior to N/P in terms of cleanup ability. tab->ap->fh repeat. I dont see why people think that removal of conditions is somehow better than lulzspam of fh/evas.

loshon · Jun 19, 2011, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Physway gets wrecked by Blind. No condi removal = blind.

That is all.

Messager De Grenth · Jun 19, 2011, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Blind doesn't affect 100b or VoS. Condition removal should be useful only at worms.

ashes · Jun 19, 2011, 09:01 AM // 09:01

So N/A is still widely used by pugs while N/P are used by more skilled/coordinated groups?

loshon · Jun 19, 2011, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I'd say N/P and N/A are actually about 40%/60% (respectively) usage in pugs right now, especially in the last week or so I've seen a lot more N/Ps than N/As.

Slaphead Monk · Jun 19, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Meh, im from a time before buh change and regen change, when war+nec reigned supreme. Oh, and N/A is far superior to N/P in terms of cleanup ability. tab->ap->fh repeat. I dont see why people think that removal of conditions is somehow better than lulzspam of fh/evas.

And what makes you infer that im not from that "time"? I've done fow since it began as an SC with e/a terras then a/e and a/me MT, ive seen the candy and sliver nerfs, all of it, im not some new kid who's only started playing after buh so i dont see how you being a "veteran" player means you can just ignore better team setups with that as a justification... acknowledging better builds and superior tactics is just something that a good player should know how to do, regardless of what used to reign supreme(yes i know manly still reigns supreme in pugs but that doesnt make it better).

And thats because unless you are exceedingly poor there is very little cleanup to do, but assuming you have cleanup to do, it is likely going to be either battlefield or forest, where touches (and one hex but lolcurehex) are the main source of blind unless you suck and stand in traps. Forge Top is another possibility but with safespots and rangers standing together in packets of two - it is easy enough anyway. and Inspirational speech ->adrenaline ->wars can spam more.

And Loshon - CTT = prevents blind, preventing the problem >>> having to solve it. If things arent dead after 3 (6 if chained with monk) touches (worms are in packs of 3 (unless horrible spawn) hurr durr) then you are terribad. And before you say impaler traps - the two on bf should be killed before they can put traps down, and the MT can safely set off the traps of the ones in forest.

So yes, whilst n/a is still widely used, n/p is becoming more popular, its only taken pugs years to realise that n/a is inferior, but it is happening, there was a time you being n/p meant rejection from pug teams because they didnt accept it. N/P is slowly becoming meta, so just jump on the bandwagon

Mig Coconut · Jun 19, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Ideally, put it on the same target for large groups, different target (tab really fast) for small groups.

For the n/p vs n/a debate:
I like n/p for pug teams. You get fallback, ctt, and aoe res (wsr), all of which are useful. The downside is aos doesn't always recharge mop, which may slow down fast teams. Cleanup also isn't as strong.

N/A is great for exp teams. The monk will bring fallback and ctt, negating the reason for you to carry it, and rarely will anyone die, making wsr useless. Mop will always recharge, and you get tons of cleanup from evas and fh spam.

Short version: n/p has more utility, n/a has more damage. In the overall scheme of things, it barely matters what build you bring. A good main tank and coordinated spike team are more important than any build nit-picking.

However, builds do matter for two-man spike teams. Old skool two-man is n/p and w/a, but with the updates n/a and d/a is slightly more effective and much easier. Dervs can bring dual jump, vos can have 100% uptime, and sand shards is whopping additional damage. However, dervs have somewhat less cleanup damage than w/a. This is made up for in the n/a, which has numerous cleanup damage. Inspirational Speech is useless to dervs, and the other utility n/p can bring is unnecessary in advanced groups.

Assylia · Jun 19, 2011, 02:49 PM // 14:49

@Slaphead Monk: I thought this discussion was about pug teams, with 2 terras and 2 spikers. And again theres no reason to bring Inspirational Speech anyway if you have 2 spikers since stuff will die anyhow. The Warrior got TTL so I don't see the point. The monk brings Fall Back and CTT so then the only reason to go /P is for Inspirational Speech? And it's simple to understand that N/A kills single targets faster too, and recharges MoP everytime. So I must have missed the part where I was wrong, please tell me.

And since the OP seems to be puglike (judging by his question) I'm talking about pugway, because anyone doing t3/4-way would be smart enough not to ask stuff like that.

Slaphead Monk · Jun 19, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Because you only go n/a for AP. an elite which can easily be covered by bringing AoS, which, recharges skills on almost every spike. and whilst yes, AP may work every time, it still isnt much to shout about. IJAFW//Inspirational Speech are stronger elites to bring, and there is nothing stopping you using EVAS + fh on the n/p bar either,so how is it stronger single target cleanup? if there is more than ~2 foes to cleanup your tank has balled horribly, but considering as you said you have two spikers + an SoS...it doesnt matter.

FB on 2 players = chaining, so uhm, how is the monk having it a viable reason to not having it on the nec? Same goes for CTT if monk doesnt have it, you can safely cover conditions, hell you can both bring it if oyu want..just because one player has it does not make that a viable reason for someone else not to. My t3/4 way comment was not directed at the OP (hense i made the distinction by following with OT

, so i dont see why you are even mentioning that...

seriously, scroll up. i already stated that preventing the problem (ctt >>blind) is better than solving it, and considering not all monks run CTT anyway, i dont see why bringing it on the nec is undesirable. If you dont want inspirational (which i for the most part meant IJAFW, but who cares...) The point is, going n/a and wasting an elite on recharging skills when you can just bring aos is retarded, bringing aos allows for more utility, plain and simple, oh and no one said that AP sucks, pointing out that the n/a bar is inferior to n/p is a valid response, so stop calling people terribad for saying n/p is better when the people you are referring to quite clearly know what they are talking about.

and that is why you are wrong.

Assylia · Jun 19, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Well even if you go N/A just for AP which can be replaced with AoS, you're going N/P for IJAFW which is an elite and is as usefull as Foul Feast. Since you have to bring AoS you can't bring another PvE-skill either, making you gain less power than N/A who can bring 3 dmg PvE-skills. And well it happens a lot in pug teams that theres more than 1 left over foe after the spike, making N/A better... once again because you can chain more EVAS and FH. And there's no need for 2 copies of CTT either, preventing 4 touch skills is enough. So then the only reason left is Fall Back, and tbh there's not that much running in FoW, and those 10 seconds that the monk's Fall Back is recharging won't matter enough to even bother since most times you'll be waiting for the tank to ball things anyway. And why was Inspirational Speech better when theres 2 spikers?

This is why you're wrong.

Slaphead Monk · Jun 19, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assylia

Well even if you go N/A just for AP which can be replaced with AoS, you're going N/P for IJAFW which is an elite and is as usefull as Foul Feast. Since you have to bring AoS you can't bring another PvE-skill either, making you gain less power than N/A who can bring 3 dmg PvE-skills. And well it happens a lot in pug teams that theres more than 1 left over foe after the spike, making N/A better... once again because you can chain more EVAS and FH. And there's no need for 2 copies of CTT either, preventing 4 touch skills is enough. So then the only reason left is Fall Back, and tbh there's not that much running in FoW, and those 10 seconds that the monk's Fall Back is recharging won't matter enough to even bother since most times you'll be waiting for the tank to ball things anyway. And why was Inspirational Speech better when theres 2 spikers?

This is why you're wrong.

The old 2spiker bars (N/P and W/A only) were different, the n/p would run inpirational and use it on the war on spikes - a tactic not used any more on t3/t4way really, and when they do t3 with manlyspike they run 2 wars/dervs and a nec instead of the old 1 nec + war + monk/forest rit.

as i said... you have 2 spikers and an sos clearing up, with two spikers on one target and additional damage from spirits, EVAS + FH is negligible damage, oh and i said ~2 foes, because normally it is a few bonds left over because pugs cannot ball them correctly... the difference AP makes for spamming stuff is negligible. i didnt say 2x CTT is a necessity, i said it is an option, so again, your point is invalid. also... IJAFW is > ff so, how does that make ijafw not a reason? your logic is flawed. Tank should also have balled everything before you get there anyway, and even if he hasnt, its not like you stand still for hours waiting, so again, flawed point. Also, most pugs just run evas + fh and then whatever the hell else on their bar, 3rd pve skill is often either negligible in how much it helps or they dont even take one, so again, you made no real point.

You can argue this to death if you wish, but it is accepted that n/p is superior to n/a by most high end players, or even players who just know how skills work... so i dont see why you are so hell bent on arguing otherwise. Your logic is quite heavily flawed and you keep attempting to disregard points i make using flawed statements.

I have told you why n/p is superior to n/a, and considering most people here are in agreement with me, i dont see any point in this continuing. Oh, and dropping AP for aos and secondary opens up more than just IJAFW, you can run /mo for ua or rc as others have stated, there are several other options, n/p is just the most popular.

Life Bringing · Jun 19, 2011, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slaphead Monk

And what makes you infer that im not from that "time"? I've done fow since it began as an SC with e/a terras then a/e and a/me MT, ive seen the candy and sliver nerfs, all of it, im not some new kid who's only started playing after buh so i dont see how you being a "veteran" player means you can just ignore better team setups with that as a justification... acknowledging better builds and superior tactics is just something that a good player should know how to do, regardless of what used to reign supreme(yes i know manly still reigns supreme in pugs but that doesnt make it better).

herpaderp im well acquainted with modern tactics. Hell, i created the modern splits for t4way and part of t5way, as well as controlled the fow record for a good two years. I'm well aware that rits are stronger overall, but we are referring to manlyspike here, not derpspike.

Regardless of how perfect the mt's balling is, AP will always be superior to IJaFW. If theres no leftovers, theres no conditions. Its not like conditions outside of blind even really affect the run, and foul feast is more than enough to strip the blind at worms. On the off chance that there ARE leftovers, AP's utility far outweighs the utility granted by going /p. I still dont get how this is even an argument.

Assylia · Jun 19, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

It's funny how Slaphead Monk keeps saying my arguments are invalid when they're clearly not. Your own arguments on why N/P would be superior in a regular pugteam is not much to brag about either, since they're based around that Inspirational Speech is supergood (when you haven't even told me why still), IJAFW is awesome too (when conditions aren't a problem anyway at worms since you got CTT as you said) and that Fall Back really really speeds the run up. Also you're pretty much the only "high-end" player in this thread that really argumented for N/P's favor...

loshon · Jun 19, 2011, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Also, Slaphead uses the logical fallacy here known as ad populum.

Quote:

You can argue this to death if you wish, but it is accepted that n/p is superior to n/a by most high end players, or even players who just know how skills work... so i dont see why you are so hell bent on arguing otherwise. Your logic is quite heavily flawed and you keep attempting to disregard points i make using flawed statements.

Before you call out someone else's logic, make sure your own is legitimate.

[Nika] · Jun 21, 2011, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

herpaderp im well acquainted with modern tactics. Hell, i created the modern splits for t4way and part of t5way, as well as controlled the fow record for a good two years. I'm well aware that rits are stronger overall, but we are referring to manlyspike here, not derpspike.

Regardless of how perfect the mt's balling is, AP will always be superior to IJaFW. If theres no leftovers, theres no conditions. Its not like conditions outside of blind even really affect the run, and foul feast is more than enough to strip the blind at worms. On the off chance that there ARE leftovers, AP's utility far outweighs the utility granted by going /p. I still dont get how this is even an argument.

Well you created the builds for everyone? Are you sure that noone made these builds before you did?
There is one thing i learned a year ago: never ask for credit if you made a build, because there are that many players out there who could've been faster making a similar build/tactic.
The fact that you may be a good known player in the "leading sc-guilds" (well i dont know, because i am not playing in the highest end of sc where everyone only wants records) still won't allow you to claim that.

But alex, i am afraid that its still right that N/A is better than N/P - since AP recharges all skills even if only your target dies (while cleaning up), that makes evas/fh/ebonsniper/ymlad spamable -> foes doe really fast.
Another point is, that N/A has 3 pve slots which allow more dmg too.

Actually the build of the mop doesnt really matters, it only must have mop + a recharge skill + 6 variables for better spiking/more cleanup dmg/more support/heal (yeah i know its stupid but you can bring hexremove and shit ;D)

Ximvotn · Jun 27, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Always run N/A, can't rely on a PUG to correctly spike. I usually just cast MoP and then AP if they can't killed the target yet. It's not a big deal because MoP is usually ready by the next ball.

RonanH · Jul 27, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Definitely on the enemy you cast MoP on if your 100b/VoS is decent you won't have time to put it on an adjacent foe as the spike should be instantaneous, although since MoP hits foes adjacent to your target he will love the longest but can be quickly killed with finish him and evas

Zhen · Jul 27, 2011, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assylia

Also you're pretty much the only "high-end" player in this thread that really argumented for N/P's favor...

It's cuz high end ppl generally don't use manly spike and therefore don't bother to post here...

As for the question which one is superior to the other, in "exp" teams N/P is better since u won't have time to cast AP anyway. As for pugs, run whatever the hell u want, the run will suck anyway since it's a pug run.

Alex2 · Jul 27, 2011, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Depends if you go with pugs or guild.. And ot says you ser in The danish guild RoP so i assume you go with pugs.
So that would be The one with 2 dervs/100b 1 ua
1 eoe 1t1 1t2 1mt. I usually run N/Mo with 1air of sup. 2MoP. 3Barbs. 4SoH. 5Foul feast. 6UA. 7Evas. 8 rigor mortis.
attributes: curses 12+1+3 smitting prayers: 10. Soul reaping: rest
The build is used by: mantaining soh on melees. Casting Air of sup. Pinging Mop on target followed by evas and if theyre not dead ping a barbs.
Res with UA remove cond with foul feast.
At Worms you Cast: air ping mop then Cast rigor then remove cond then evas and they should All be dead.

Why is ua good: ua because alot of monks are Mans and die

+ if g3 dies you Can go res + if monk is down ua is better Then fomf. And if mop is afk or dvs or leaves u Can still Make it.

Why is soh good: soh is good cause not All spikers are syncronized or hood so soh makes it clean anyway. Try it out it works awesome!

Ive been playing mop since ever, but basics for mop os cond remove mop barbs and skill recharge

Hope you Can use it

- Alex (er også dansker xD)